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	<title>Comments on: Are logo design contest sites even legal?</title>
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	<link>http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/logo-design-contests-legal/</link>
	<description>The Art &#38; Business of Logo Design</description>
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		<title>By: Pro e contro del lavoro speculativo &#124; Tiragraffi</title>
		<link>http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/logo-design-contests-legal/comment-page-2/#comment-200909</link>
		<dc:creator>Pro e contro del lavoro speculativo &#124; Tiragraffi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2011 12:18:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/?p=739#comment-200909</guid>
		<description>[...] toglie dignita&#8217; all&#8217;idea stessa di lavoro. Alcuni sollevano anche che ci possano essere considerazioni legali in merito da tenere in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] toglie dignita&#8217; all&#8217;idea stessa di lavoro. Alcuni sollevano anche che ci possano essere considerazioni legali in merito da tenere in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: WhyMeLord</title>
		<link>http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/logo-design-contests-legal/comment-page-2/#comment-200755</link>
		<dc:creator>WhyMeLord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jun 2011 02:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/?p=739#comment-200755</guid>
		<description>&quot;If I don&#039;t win, I keep the legal rights to my design and can use it elsewhere.&quot; 

Don&#039;t be to sure about that on many levels.

Recall you can&#039;t sell from an empty wagon.

&quot;I don&#039;t have to pay to be a part of&quot;  Typically there is a given that a designer has 2000 hours a year in productive time.  What with over head that&#039;s, real world, a lot less.  Just how much time can you afford to invest in unproductive work before you&#039;ve nothing left in the creative wagon to sell?

Maybe I&#039;m old fashioned but I don&#039;t bid, I quote and for the most part the quotation format is boiler plate.  After the client commits the real work and creativity begins.

I just happen to be an engineer (another somewhat similar creative field) I&#039;m paid not only for what I do but what I can do and the associate skill set and knowledge base I bring to the table.  There is never a question or the option that a client should consider much less expect that should they not like the design my work and my skill set are free.

As to the restaurant analogy if the food is bad (say prepared in rancid oil) then not paying is a legitimate option but if I order something and change my mind then I should by rights be expect to pay for what I ordered.  

When you tip is the tip based on the physical service delivered by the wait staff or the flavor of the food?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If I don&#8217;t win, I keep the legal rights to my design and can use it elsewhere.&#8221; </p>
<p>Don&#8217;t be to sure about that on many levels.</p>
<p>Recall you can&#8217;t sell from an empty wagon.</p>
<p>&#8220;I don&#8217;t have to pay to be a part of&#8221;  Typically there is a given that a designer has 2000 hours a year in productive time.  What with over head that&#8217;s, real world, a lot less.  Just how much time can you afford to invest in unproductive work before you&#8217;ve nothing left in the creative wagon to sell?</p>
<p>Maybe I&#8217;m old fashioned but I don&#8217;t bid, I quote and for the most part the quotation format is boiler plate.  After the client commits the real work and creativity begins.</p>
<p>I just happen to be an engineer (another somewhat similar creative field) I&#8217;m paid not only for what I do but what I can do and the associate skill set and knowledge base I bring to the table.  There is never a question or the option that a client should consider much less expect that should they not like the design my work and my skill set are free.</p>
<p>As to the restaurant analogy if the food is bad (say prepared in rancid oil) then not paying is a legitimate option but if I order something and change my mind then I should by rights be expect to pay for what I ordered.  </p>
<p>When you tip is the tip based on the physical service delivered by the wait staff or the flavor of the food?</p>
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		<title>By: Kontes Desain (Spec Work) Buruk Bagi Desainer &#124; DesainDigital</title>
		<link>http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/logo-design-contests-legal/comment-page-2/#comment-199410</link>
		<dc:creator>Kontes Desain (Spec Work) Buruk Bagi Desainer &#124; DesainDigital</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:39:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/?p=739#comment-199410</guid>
		<description>[...] Are logo design contest sites even legal? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Are logo design contest sites even legal? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: tony689</title>
		<link>http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/logo-design-contests-legal/comment-page-2/#comment-198653</link>
		<dc:creator>tony689</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Nov 2010 14:09:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/?p=739#comment-198653</guid>
		<description>This is a very interesting article and could be the chink in the armor that design societies could use. Will they? Probably not. The apathy of the design industry is, so far, very predictable.

In response to Dizeyner: 
About the places you mentioned that charge a monthly fee, at what point have you wasted billable time that equals that fee, with the same no-win results.

The world of professional design revolves around winning and losing quotes. Rather than wasting billable time drawing logos for sites where you are not winning or have very little chance of winning, why don&#039;t you pursue bettering your skills, developing better marketing strategies, better clients, and aiming for higher goals?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very interesting article and could be the chink in the armor that design societies could use. Will they? Probably not. The apathy of the design industry is, so far, very predictable.</p>
<p>In response to Dizeyner:<br />
About the places you mentioned that charge a monthly fee, at what point have you wasted billable time that equals that fee, with the same no-win results.</p>
<p>The world of professional design revolves around winning and losing quotes. Rather than wasting billable time drawing logos for sites where you are not winning or have very little chance of winning, why don&#8217;t you pursue bettering your skills, developing better marketing strategies, better clients, and aiming for higher goals?</p>
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		<title>By: bizlegal</title>
		<link>http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/logo-design-contests-legal/comment-page-2/#comment-196812</link>
		<dc:creator>bizlegal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jun 2010 00:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/?p=739#comment-196812</guid>
		<description>It is very important that you begin your movement to the new methods of doing business. Your Web site is your business card online. This is all the more true of the lawyers advising those businesses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is very important that you begin your movement to the new methods of doing business. Your Web site is your business card online. This is all the more true of the lawyers advising those businesses.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Douglas</title>
		<link>http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/logo-design-contests-legal/comment-page-2/#comment-195337</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Douglas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/?p=739#comment-195337</guid>
		<description>@interpid Thanks for taking the time to comment (I think you&#039;re the designer that created the &lt;strong&gt;Crowdspring&lt;/strong&gt; and &lt;strong&gt;Logo Tournament&lt;/strong&gt; logos, no?)

I think you may be conflating several issues here. The first (not dealt with in the piece) is how income from design contests is viewed for tax reporting purposes. That&#039;s neither here nor there, in terms of what design contests are, or aren&#039;t. Though I&#039;d agree that anyone who doesn&#039;t report income from ALL sources is &quot;kinda dense&quot;. 

As an aside, taxation of design services in Canada is a quagmire. For example, if you&#039;re in Ontario, and e-mail Ontario-based clients files, it is considered a service and therefore not subject to PST. If you hand over a CD, then the artwork becomes a physical product and is taxable. If you FAX a proofs to a client, they&#039;re using their paper so the design work remains a service. If you hand them sheets of paper printed on your system, it may well be considered a product and taxable under PST. A lot of my knowledge in this area comes first hand, thanks to an aggressive crack-down on the design industry a few years ago.

The second issue is how design contests are &lt;strong&gt;marketed&lt;/strong&gt; to people entering (wherein lies the rub). There&#039;s lots of precedent for &#039;creative&#039; contests being viewed, legally speaking, as actual contests, including design, writing and video production. Read the terms and conditions of a promotional design contest (a large corporation for example) and you&#039;ll see how complex they are (several links in the article above), especially when compared with the standard user agreements of your typical design contest site. There&#039;s even a few instances where large corporations, holding contests on sites like &lt;strong&gt;99designs&lt;/strong&gt; and &lt;strong&gt;Crowdspring&lt;/strong&gt;, have added their own terms and conditions, obviously to follow accepted contest laws and regulations that aren&#039;t covered in the base site version. Apparently, their lawyers know something that we don&#039;t. 

Work-for-hire is a legal concept and is more relevant to authorship and ownership of artwork and the transfer of same. That&#039;s hot button issue too - many have opined that work-for-hire agreements claimed by contest sites go beyond what is generally acceptable. Traditionally, work-for-hire applied to actual employees where hardware, software and allowances for time are covered by the employer, and included in the contract. Many view the shifting of work-for-hire provisions to freelance contractors (or in this case, design contest participants) who now have to shoulder all the expenses, to be unethical at best. The designer assumes all the expense, and risk, while giving away at least some ownership of their work, usually under some dodgy user agreement. Some designers have taken on that fight and there&#039;s a few anti work-for-hire campaigns around, including &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.stopworkforhire.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Stop Work For Hire&lt;/a&gt;, promoted by some outfit called &lt;strong&gt;PAL&lt;/strong&gt; (Professional Artists League).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@interpid Thanks for taking the time to comment (I think you&#8217;re the designer that created the <strong>Crowdspring</strong> and <strong>Logo Tournament</strong> logos, no?)</p>
<p>I think you may be conflating several issues here. The first (not dealt with in the piece) is how income from design contests is viewed for tax reporting purposes. That&#8217;s neither here nor there, in terms of what design contests are, or aren&#8217;t. Though I&#8217;d agree that anyone who doesn&#8217;t report income from ALL sources is &#8220;kinda dense&#8221;. </p>
<p>As an aside, taxation of design services in Canada is a quagmire. For example, if you&#8217;re in Ontario, and e-mail Ontario-based clients files, it is considered a service and therefore not subject to PST. If you hand over a CD, then the artwork becomes a physical product and is taxable. If you FAX a proofs to a client, they&#8217;re using their paper so the design work remains a service. If you hand them sheets of paper printed on your system, it may well be considered a product and taxable under PST. A lot of my knowledge in this area comes first hand, thanks to an aggressive crack-down on the design industry a few years ago.</p>
<p>The second issue is how design contests are <strong>marketed</strong> to people entering (wherein lies the rub). There&#8217;s lots of precedent for &#8216;creative&#8217; contests being viewed, legally speaking, as actual contests, including design, writing and video production. Read the terms and conditions of a promotional design contest (a large corporation for example) and you&#8217;ll see how complex they are (several links in the article above), especially when compared with the standard user agreements of your typical design contest site. There&#8217;s even a few instances where large corporations, holding contests on sites like <strong>99designs</strong> and <strong>Crowdspring</strong>, have added their own terms and conditions, obviously to follow accepted contest laws and regulations that aren&#8217;t covered in the base site version. Apparently, their lawyers know something that we don&#8217;t. </p>
<p>Work-for-hire is a legal concept and is more relevant to authorship and ownership of artwork and the transfer of same. That&#8217;s hot button issue too &#8211; many have opined that work-for-hire agreements claimed by contest sites go beyond what is generally acceptable. Traditionally, work-for-hire applied to actual employees where hardware, software and allowances for time are covered by the employer, and included in the contract. Many view the shifting of work-for-hire provisions to freelance contractors (or in this case, design contest participants) who now have to shoulder all the expenses, to be unethical at best. The designer assumes all the expense, and risk, while giving away at least some ownership of their work, usually under some dodgy user agreement. Some designers have taken on that fight and there&#8217;s a few anti work-for-hire campaigns around, including <a href="http://www.stopworkforhire.com/" rel="nofollow">Stop Work For Hire</a>, promoted by some outfit called <strong>PAL</strong> (Professional Artists League).</p>
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		<title>By: intrepidguppy</title>
		<link>http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/logo-design-contests-legal/comment-page-2/#comment-195334</link>
		<dc:creator>intrepidguppy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 11:06:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/?p=739#comment-195334</guid>
		<description>The government (in Canada) looks at crowdsourcing &#039;contests&#039; as works for hire. They&#039;re legal because they&#039;re not actually contests despite the wording. And in Canada they are not subject to GST (a value added tax) if the &#039;contest&#039; holder is not Canadian, which is a good reason to identify the location of a client. 

They are contests only in principle, not fact. Anybody who thinks they are really contests by the legal definition and doesn&#039;t report their income is kind of dense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The government (in Canada) looks at crowdsourcing &#8216;contests&#8217; as works for hire. They&#8217;re legal because they&#8217;re not actually contests despite the wording. And in Canada they are not subject to GST (a value added tax) if the &#8216;contest&#8217; holder is not Canadian, which is a good reason to identify the location of a client. </p>
<p>They are contests only in principle, not fact. Anybody who thinks they are really contests by the legal definition and doesn&#8217;t report their income is kind of dense.</p>
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		<title>By: Pro e contro del lavoro speculativo ~ Tiragraffi</title>
		<link>http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/logo-design-contests-legal/comment-page-2/#comment-195279</link>
		<dc:creator>Pro e contro del lavoro speculativo ~ Tiragraffi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Jan 2010 09:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/?p=739#comment-195279</guid>
		<description>[...] toglie dignita&#8217; all&#8217;idea stessa di lavoro. Alcuni sollevano anche che ci possano essere considerazioni legali in merito da tenere in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] toglie dignita&#8217; all&#8217;idea stessa di lavoro. Alcuni sollevano anche che ci possano essere considerazioni legali in merito da tenere in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The &#8220;Pros&#8221; and Cons of Spec Work</title>
		<link>http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/logo-design-contests-legal/comment-page-2/#comment-193909</link>
		<dc:creator>The &#8220;Pros&#8221; and Cons of Spec Work</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 11:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/?p=739#comment-193909</guid>
		<description>[...] Essentially, design contests are like a lottery to the extent that some even question the legalities of them. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Essentially, design contests are like a lottery to the extent that some even question the legalities of them. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The design of this blog is crap. Refousing our brand. Redesigning our blog. &#124; The Logo Factor Design Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/logo-design-contests-legal/comment-page-2/#comment-193261</link>
		<dc:creator>The design of this blog is crap. Refousing our brand. Redesigning our blog. &#124; The Logo Factor Design Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 09:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/?p=739#comment-193261</guid>
		<description>[...] honest &#8211; most clients couldn&#8217;t give a rat&#8217;s ass about design crowdsourcing, the legality of logo design contests or any of the issues that I can write about from [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] honest &#8211; most clients couldn&#8217;t give a rat&#8217;s ass about design crowdsourcing, the legality of logo design contests or any of the issues that I can write about from [...]</p>
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