The only predatory behavior is the businesses undermining the design community by using basement-priced crowdsourcing sites. And Fuaadh is facilitating the practice. Because of that, he is just as guilty IMHO.

I won an alternative radio station comp many moons ago, then discovered the chap working the press was paid more than me. When they then asked me to supply designs for t-shirts for nothing – i promptly told them to shove it where the sun don’t shine They just got another starving soul to do it, funny though, they were also at the time a vocal exponent of civil rights and exploitation of people.

I understand why people do this, enter comps that is, sometimes it is seen as the only way to get a start. I agree their time would be better spent getting an education in design then filling the pockets of these sites and denigrating design to clients.

As for much of the work I have seen on these sites, well, you get what you pay for.

The whole child exploitation side is very interesting, maybe a couple of law suits later we may see them die and re-emerge in a more formal way.

Can’t see it disappearing, so we have to live with it, like herpes (was fun getting it but a bugger to live with).

But please you youngsters, don’t complain later when you can’t pay your mortgage or bills because some foetus in guatemalan is doing it cheaper.

Here’s the second. Just because someone does something voluntarily has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not they’re being exploited (and voluntary participation is almost always used to excuse fairly exploitative activities).
I could list a bunch but this discussion is skittering off the tracks as it is, and a debate about whether prostitution, underpaid migrant workers from poverty stricken villages in South America or little kids in China are being exploited or not, despite their voluntary participation, would only muddy the debate further. So let’s cut to the chase. Wiki has this to say about what exploitation is, under the ‘Unjust Benefit’ category:

In political economy, economics, and sociology, exploitation involves a persistent social relationship in which certain persons are being mistreated or unfairly used for the benefit of others. This corresponds to one ethical conception of exploitation, that is, the treatment of human beings as mere means to an end—or as mere “objects”. In different terms, “exploitation” refers to the use of people as a resource, with little or no consideration of their well-being. This can take the following basic forms:

One of those ‘basic forms’ is

Short-changing people in trade

If spec work isn’t ‘short-changing people in trade’ I have no idea what is. Continuing, Wiki also tells us that exploitation most often takes the following form:

Economic exploitation; that is, the act of using another person’s labor without offering them an adequate compensation.

Sames fairly cut-and-dry to me.

In terms of changing my mind, you’re absolutely right. Once again, I never said that kids should be stopped from designing, even on a commercial basis. They should be encouraged, praised and gently critiqued, always taking into consideration their level of maturity (if we really want to get into the nitty gritty, chemically speaking, children respond to criticism in a completely different manner than adults so your ‘toughen the little bastards up’ position is a demonstrable fallacy). I also feel that if little Johnny or Jane is going to design a logo for a corporate enterprise, they should get paid for it. Conversely, little kids designing artwork for corporations without pay (with wins rate of between 4% to 10% that’s the rule rather than the exception), so that some spec site can boast ‘an average of 95 designs per project’ in their marketing, is something out of a Dickens’ novel. Kids working on spec sites is probably not wide-spread (at least I hope not), but it is something these sites are aware of and try to ‘hide’ (some of the accounts pictured above were moved, though not closed, shortly after the publish button was pressed). Turns out, they realize there’s really bad vibe to this too, not, as you suggest, something to be encouraged or applauded.

There’s lots of things that if I would do differently as a teenager, if I knew then what I know now (I’d have put more effort into my performance as a high-school student, wouldn’t have purchased a second-hand TR7 sports car, probably wouldn’t have asked my now ex-first-wife to go to the movies) but none of these are here or there. Though while we’re at it, and in terms of so-called crowdsourcing, an extraordinary number of participants bail after one or two contests, with many opining (usually in the contest site forums) that they wish they wouldn’t have wasted their time, and if only they knew then, what they know now. Alas, hindsight is always 20/20, that flipping sports car cost me $7K in repairs. And those divorce lawyer bills…

Yowza.

Show me a brick-and-mortar commercial company that would even consider letting a kid intern, learn, grow, or compete in a brick-and-mortar place. I couldn’t get an internship at age 16 when I just wanted to know how a company works.

Why would you say that if a kid does something by choice, unpaid he is EXPLOITED. That gets to me. While I do hire degrees… I don’t pitch on my website the other 50+% that finished one semester in school, some were high school drop outs, etc… sorry but marketing is marketing in that area.

I have over 500 rejected college degree resumes… yet with 16 full time people have 25+% that never started or finished college.

We can agree to disagree, but I monitor my kids online personally, I sit with them as they create facebook accounts (instead of them just doing it at their friends houses behind my back)… I encourage responsible computing… and if that means they get to enter an adult contest with adult stakes… well I am all for it (as long as I am involved). If you are talking about absentee parents, not part of the kids online life… than this entire conversation is meaningless.

You think those news stories about the kids who decide to collect teddy bears for the military men and raise $50,000 in charity are exploited (and did it without parental encouragement and pushes)? What is the real fundamental difference? How many try and fall flat on their faces instead (lemonade stands, fundraisers, etc). You want them to believe there are no critics and that everything will be “all right”… there is 10% unemployment right now… I post a $10-12/hr office front desk position and get 50+ resumes in 24 hours and some have masters degrees begging for full time work.

Do you have some delusion that this will get easier for the next generation in 10 years? That their passion for design at age 12 will be welcomed to the business world with a full benefits gig and no experience.

Show me a kid with a commercial portfolio by the age of 15 and I am telling you he has the interview at the very least. Get a college degree to round it off… but don’t sit back and rest on it.

But yes… should they run a muck and do whatever they like online without worry or consequence ABSOLUTELY NOT. Should these commercial companies using the service say “no designs by under 18… your not real people yet and should not be practicing these types of commercial skills until your older”

But if you see your kid designing a pizzeria logo for 4 hours and just doing it knowing he isn’t paid for it… you can either shut his computer off or encourage him as a parent. Explain the sites, the process, cultivate an understanding of the system.

Matt is right. If the only thing I have to worry about is someone being overly critical of their submission online… than I call that a win. Better than finding porn viruses all over the computer. Plus the kids competing in these… found these sites, chose to take time out and do it. This is not FORCED LABOR in anyway.

The bottom line is they get to try… if you teach them about failure… that NOT EVERYONE gets a trophy. They are so much better prepared for the real world (especially this scary real world now). As for “exploited”… if their design is chosen, they get paid… just like everyone else. If not, they go outside and play some baseball. Kids are not “one” or “nothing”. But you have to parent them into real life or you will probably not be surprised when they move back home after college and ask dad if he can find some janitorial job at his firm. You don’t have to crush their dreams but you can cultivate an understanding in “kid” terms.

Our society has dulled these kids down to a sense of gluttony and entitlement that is destroying the fabric of the country. Keep pushing the youth into thinking it is cool to wait it out and think about the rest of your life after you graduate… by that time you are behind the rest of the world. I see no problem in introducing kids to realistic work practices young… DON’T get me wrong… I don’t mean force your 11 year old into a 9 to 5. But encourage them, teach them, work with them… if the scariest part of your day is worrying that your kids got criticized for artwork that they KNEW was a contest (because you explained it to them)… you obviously haven’t talked to them about what kind of names the neighbor kids call them on the public bus ride to school (point being there are FAR more things to worry about in real-life and online). [funny conversation popped into my head] DAD WALKS INTO BEDROOM… kid glances over shoulder, sees dad popping in… flips his monitor off quickly. dad says… Son were you creating original artwork for an evil corporation and not getting paid for it… son looks at dad with eyes of shame, says… no. Dad flips on the monitor to see fully functional suites of photoshop and illustrator lighting up the screen. A screaming match ensues. Johnny… get out of this room this instant. I saw your friends smoking a bowl at the corner, WHY CANT YOU BE MORE LIKE THEM…. stop pursuing this silly dream of design and artwork for pay and get out there and smoke some pot. You can deal with this when you are an ADULT. son apologizes to dad for the indiscretion and heads down the street with his friends. Dad complains to himself… I don’t know what is wrong with kids these days. /end-scene (may be a bit drastic but essentially the scenario I pictured in my mind)

I understand this is a blog, so it’s an opinion. If a kid is not comfortable putting themselves “out there”… then stick to drawing pictures in their bedroom and posting them on their facebook wall. But if they are encouraged and taught about what it really means to do this type of work… they will either pursue it and get better or move on to a different topic of interest. Either way, there are life lessons and the path set at that age may determine their fates a few short years later. Keeping 95% of them hidden from it just means the 5% that “get it” before they get to high school (or worse college)… means that they have a leg up on the guy who picked a major at age 18 because he always “liked art” and thought it might be fun to go to school for it (and like you said… they can spend a couple years after that, in debt… interning to get caught up). I dropped out of college, spent 4 years working for $3 bucks an hour ($5 was minimum wage). Not a path I want my kids to pursue. If they are prepared before going into college, they can walk out… degree, portfolio, real world experience, and into their jobs. Not just getting started at age 21.

Again, not trying to change your mind… you are committed to your message. Just trying to be practical and realistic about employment, the future, and a changing world of design and digital dynamics that will either force us to evolve or die out. The world is brutal and you can either hold their hand and introduce it to them as they grow… or let them feel the shock of it when it is too late to go back!

(You have to have a few things in mind now that you have said… man if I only knew what I know now… I would have done this quite a bit differently when I was young). Those regrets may be in the way these young children look at their jobs and careers (or lack thereof) in the future. As a parent, now is the time that you can choose to introduce them to the principles, or just give them their “trophy” for last place and let them find out for real that the world doesn’t work that way.

Who cares if it’s commercial or just a “free” art contest. The fact that a company gets the benefit (and pays for it)… just means the kids have a choice to get started younger or not. No one is strapping the kids into the chair and saying you can’t go play with your friends until you deliver 8 concepts to this guy online so daddy can get paid (that is a different topic completely).

Thanks for the time. Thanks for your post. The freedom of the internet lets you post your views and let’s me express mine back. Good Day Sir.

In terms of ‘making “them better candidates for real-world positions later in life” some, myself included, see this as another example of The Tragedy of the Commons. Simply put, when design contests become the norm in the design profession, there won’t be any design profession for these young designers to be “better candidates” for. At my age, it won’t make much difference to me but it might to younger designers now entering, or planning to enter, the field. Luckily, and for the time being, so-called ‘design crowdsourcing’ seems to be an overhyped fad.

I never claimed that 99designs et al are ‘employing underage designers’. If I can be a wag, and truth to tell, they’re not employing ANY designers, regardless of their age, which is kinda my point, viewing spec work as exploitative as I do.

While I agree with you that it is ultimately the parent’s responsibility for monitoring their childrens’ online activity, that has little bearing on the social responsibility of the issue we’re discussing. In terms of your question

Why should the responsibility be on 99designs & other crowd sourcing sites or on the companies that choose to use these sources to verify that all contributors are at least 18 (or 16 since it is the legal working age)?

the answer is really quite simple. Because, as you yourself state, the generally accepted LEGAL working age is 16 (in some countries it’s 14 while in most jurisdictions the contract signing age is actually 18) and crowdsourcing sites themselves ‘officially’ state that participation is restricted to participants over 18. This is, one supposes, as advised by their lawyers when drawing up their terms and conditions, in order to avoid any liability of same, and to cover the contracts required for IP transfer. They certainly see it as a potential issue, despite, as you correctly point out, there being no active filtering of registrants (gotta keep those numbers up, doncha know).

While you’re obviously down with this whole spec work thing, I’m surprised you don’t share their ‘concerns.’ Though gotta admit, two pro ‘kiddie spec designer’ comments on the same day, both from the Buffalo NY area, on a six month old blog post, is a little odd.

Companies are not openly employing underage employees here, period. Maybe parents should be responsible for their children’s internet & computer usage and not allow them to do whatever they want online (we all know there’s much worse websites that kids could be spending their time on). If parents feel their children are being exploited by participating in such contests, then they should be responsible for keeping their children out of them. Why should the responsibility be on 99designs & other crowd sourcing sites or on the companies that choose to use these sources to verify that all contributors are at least 18 (or 16 since it is the legal working age), especially when it is so easily easily concealed.